Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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The technical section of the village pump is used to discuss technical issues about Wikipedia. Bug reports and feature requests should be made in Phabricator (see how to report a bug). Bugs with security implications should be reported differently (see how to report security bugs). Newcomers to the technical village pump are encouraged to read these guidelines prior to posting here. If you want to report a JavaScript error, please follow this guideline. Questions about MediaWiki in general should be posted at the MediaWiki support desk. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for five days.

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Escaping a pipe character in system messages

Please can anyone advise on this issue. User:Awesome Aasim has requested that some system messages using {{fmbox}} are hardcoded as tables (like this) to avoid it breaking when a pipe character occurs. Hopefully he/she will be along to explain this better than I can. Is there any way that fmbox can be used successfully in these cases? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

First, where is that breakage occurring, and how is it manifested? Second, this is sematically an improper use of a table element. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The main issue is with the parameter $1 in system messages for the title blacklist. This is the parameter that is responsible for providing the regex that was tripped in the local or global blacklist. Because it can be frustrating for good-faith editors to know which filter tripped when they were creating a filter, this is more of a diagnostic that I suggested only be visible to extended-confirmed users. Unfortunately, because the regex sometimes includes a pipe character | it breaks many templates. I do not know if there is a way where this character can be accommodated without breaking any additional templates. If anyone more technical than me in MediaWiki knows, feel free to reply to this message.

(On a side note, this issue can easily be fixed if MediaWiki sent {{!}} instead to the parameter $1. This could maybe fixed in a bug request on Phabricator.) Aasim (talk) 08:39, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

$1 is not a regular template parameter, like {{{1}}}. Can this be solved by wrapping it in <nowiki>...</nowiki>? —⁠andrybak (talk) 10:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

@Awesome Aasim:, what do you think? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:29, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Can someone test the changes on test wiki first? If they work, then we can implement the nowiki change. Aasim (talk) 15:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Awesome Aasim, judging by the page Wikipedia:What Test Wiki is not, it seems that https://testwiki.wiki/ should be used for such tests. —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:39, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Get ready for horizontal scrollbars with Wikipedia's "New Look"

The Wikipedia "New Look" is coming: Wikimedia Blog: "New Look".

There are some nice features, like collapsible left sidebar. Then, there's the fixed-width content window, leading to horizontal scrollbars at browser widths less than the one they specify. "New Look" is currently active at French Wikipedia. Also at fr-wikt, eu-wiki, fa-wiki, he-wiki, pt-wiki. Mathglot (talk) 22:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I hate to be grumpy and rude (no, really!), but it is clear to me that none of the people who worked on these "Desktop Improvements" has professional experience with UIs or usability. Looking at the Collapsible sidebar animation I see the sidebar disappearing and reappearing, with no reuse of the real estate it occupied. What good is that? According to that blog post, it's supposed to "improve usability and focus by allowing people to concentrate on the content itself"; I'd concentrate better without all that wasted space in my windows, which, in the collapsed case, is of absolutely no use to me at all.

The maximum line width "feature" appears to be similarly disrespectful of the user's needs, by forcing (what will probably appear to be arbitrary) wastages of space. I thought fixed-width design went out 10 years ago. Or was that only among clued professionals? Grumble, grumple, harrumpf, get off my lawn you consarned kids... — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 00:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

There's a professional UX designer and a UX engineer on the team working on this. I suspect they do, in fact, have professional experience with UIs/usability. Anyway, no projects except the volunteering early-adopter wikis are getting this before next year, per the FAQ. --Yair rand (talk) 00:57, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Maximum line widths continue to be part of current web layout design (people still have trouble tracking text beyond a certain line length). Responsive web design will use techniques to rearrange page components appropriately as the screen size changes. (I haven't looked at the prototype changes, so have no comments on whether or not the design is responsive.) isaacl (talk) 02:27, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Anyone with any experience trying to inspect now-you-see-me-comma-now-you-don't elements in a side-panel of their browser can attest that "responsive web design" is the antichrist. ―cobaltcigs 22:28, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@JohnFromPinckney: I believe the justification for the fixed-width is that it's easier for people to continue reading from one line to the next when the text column isn't huge. This is why newspapers have all their text in columns since it would be difficult to go from one line to the next across a huge sheet of paper. The reason for the resurgence in fixed-width designs is due to the high resolution of monitors these days (creating the same problem as the newspapers' giant sheets of paper). I'm not a designer though, so please take all of my comments with a grain of salt. Kaldari (talk) 23:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Apple's hi-res display on the iPhone also catalyzed responsive web design, as it was a very high resolution display but with a very small physical screen, breaking previous designer assumptions. As browsing increasing moved to phones, sidebars were replaced with bottom bars, and entries in menu bars became links to sections on one big scrolling page, as that design is readily adaptable to different screen sizes. isaacl (talk) 00:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Newspapers have fixed-width columns because Linotype machines had a fixed slug width which could not be adjusted, although they were made in different widths so two different newspapers might have a different number of columns for the same paper size. The slugs were fairly narrow because the metal (lead) used to cast the slug would sag under its own weight if made too wide. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Kaldari. I have no doubt the reading of some material can be made easier with shorter lines of text. That's not my complaint (nor the complaint of the majority who've whined about it up at MediaWiki. Nevertheless, the standard response of the fine folks at MW seems to be, "but, no, the research shows..."). My complaint is, the implementation of fixed width prohibits me from using my computer the way I want to. If I want to widen my window (for example, to reduce the height of my window and see other info above/behind/below while still viewing the same content in WP), I should be able to productively do so. And if I want to more easily read some difficult text, I should be able to narrow my window, because I believe 100% that certain texts are more legible with shorter line-widths. The point is, I (and all other WP-users) should be able to use my/or devices as we see fit. We've got the power already, WM wants to take this flexibility away. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 19:13, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

From what I understand, special pages, such as the watchlist and contribution pages do expand. That would certainly be useful for reading watchlists where someone has left a long edit summary. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 19:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I always put the web page inspector into its own window. isaacl (talk) 23:37, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Kaldari, the change to a fixed width is great, in my view. It makes it much easier to place images and quote boxes. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the goal is here, but it seems like introducing a "known" screen width will encourage various "visual editor" fallacies. For example, it still would not be safe for editors to assume:

• That sizing a floating image to exactly match the apparent "height" of the paragraph of text next to it (let's say 12 lines appears to be exactly 228px) makes it "safe" to float another image on the opposite side of the next paragraph (without having to worry about an ugly gap when the {{clear}} tag is used, or ugly "sandwiched" text when it isn't used),
• That the 960px is the "correct" width for a panoramic photo of some city's skyline,
• That a specific number of <gallery> images (perhaps six) will fit on one row (or worse, that knowing this magic number makes the relevance of each particular photo secondary to avoiding a remainder),

And we really don't want them to.

Consistent layout results would still be a lost cause in practice, because different clients will select different fonts to satisfy (vague) body { font-family: sans-serif; font-size: x-small; } CSS defaults, which may or may not be overridden on a per-user basis anyway. For consistent results, you'd have to hard-code it to an absolute font-size, provide the name of some font that everyone has, and probably a handful of other things like margins, padding, and line-height (someone please tell me what else I've forgotten) whose default values might differ from one client to the next. Obviously, the more specific you get, the more you alienate users who liked the way it looked before. Sure, you can always advise the hard of seeing to zoom in and out with ctrl+mouse-wheel in their browser, but that won't have consistent results either. Some programs will resize "everything" (and mess up gallery wrapping, plus attempts at full-width images) while others will resize "text only" (and mess up floating image layout). Others might do something in-between (test this, in fact).

I suppose the only foolproof solution would be to introduce a viewing mode which renders each article inside a scrolling PDF viewer box (similar to Google Books or Scribd, but with clickable links). This would introduce additional concerns about about vertical space and page-breaks, and generally suck for this type of content. But at least it would look the same for everyone. Achieving a deterministic "print-friendly" "perfect" "what-you-see-is-what-everybody-sees" layout may echo some aspirations of the "Book" namespace, for those interested in actually doing so (I'm not).

My strategy would be to avoid making any assumptions about the client side at all, except that every possible html output will absolutely look bad for somebody somewhere. This can be mitigated by using floating images more sparingly, and without trying to be so goddamn feng-shui clever about their arrangement. I figure if it matters that much, you probably have too many. ―cobaltcigs 07:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

This VPT section was intended more as just a notification of something going on at mediawiki. If you have comments that you would like people involved with the project to see or respond to, the project discussion page is here: mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements. Mathglot (talk) 04:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this, Mathglot. I did notice the team have said they plan to remove the minimum width soon, so the horizontal scrollbars on narrower windows should no longer be a problem. the wub "?!" 09:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Browsing tests on the above-mentioned wikis suggest this only affects the vector skin (which, in my humble opinion, looks like donkey ass and was totally unusable even before this) and not monobook. So hopefully they'll leave it at that. ―cobaltcigs 22:28, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

From a technical perspective, we can add a gadget to remove what is the largest complaint (fixed width) - and if we really wanted to we could make it default... — xaosflux ^Talk 13:39, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Some of it seems cooler than other stuff. The table of contents is quite interesting. Not sure the collapsible nav as implemented is an improvement, but as an idea it certainly is. Seems a bit weird that the width of the page does not resize as a result - leaves a bit of a void. Would make sense to have it collapsed by default though, probably. All of those links are useless to the average reader. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Other than the search thing I don't like any of these "improvements" but then again I've never liked change full stop. I've accidentally tried the new Vector and in the most politest way of saying this ... it's bloody awful!. As the saying goes: don't fix what isn't broken. –Davey2010^Talk 20:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Gadget: "Require confirmation before performing rollback on mobile devices"

The 2nd gadget in browsing tab, titled "Require confirmation before performing rollback on mobile devices", doesn't seem to actually do anything for me. I think it is User:MusikAnimal/confirmationRollback-mobile by MusikAnimal. Is it just me or is it broken? If the latter, any other way to get rollback confirmations on mobile? The button is massive (many times the size of diff or something) and all over watchlist etc, I've hit it a few times myself accidentally. Thanks. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:57, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

N.B. this gadget loads MediaWiki:Gadget-confirmationRollback-mobile.js — xaosflux ^Talk 13:38, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Same here. It doesn’t work on minerva mobile. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 19:00, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

HasteurBot tasks carrying to other bots?

Sadly, the bot operator Hasteur passed away about 3 months ago. However, this meant that HasteurBot, which was therefore deactivated, could no longer help notify users of the pending G13 deletion, so that users would not have been able to have a 1-month period of working on the drafts in order to save it from G13. So is any bot operator willing to take over these tasks? Thank you. Eumat114 (Message) 01:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

User:MDanielsBot by User:Mdaniels5757 took over some of the tasks, including the one mentioned. But it doesn't seem to have run since 12 August. – SD0001 (talk) 10:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC) – SD0001 (talk) 10:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Wikimail down?

This weekend I had two people use the "Email this user" function on my user page, only for me never to receive either email. (I knew they had emailed me because I received an alert in each case.) I could use their email functions to let them know I never received their email, & they could contact me by replying. I've checked my spam filter & they weren't there. (As far as I know the etherbunnies ate them.)

Anyone else encounter this problem? Are there steps to troubleshoot what the problem might be? (Maybe a new setting in the MediaWiki software was created & the result is to send any email I receive to the nearest burrow of hungry etherbunnies.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Llywrch: I've just sent you an email. Did you receive it? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 09:03, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

A possibility is that your email entered into Wikipedia is not what you think it is. When was the last time you received a Wikipedia message? You could email someone you know (or me) with "email this user" and they could give hints about what your email address is. Johnuniq (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Are you or the senders using Yahoo? --Izno (talk) 12:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@AlanM1: no I did not. I did receive an alert you sent me a message.

@Johnuniq: the last time I received an email was earlier this month from someone at the Foundation asking me to participate in a survey. Before that, I received an email from another Wikipedian 4 September this year. And I am on the WikimediaUS-l mailing list, & last received an email from that list on the 20th. (I haven't looked to see if any messages have been sent to that list since then.)

@Izno: AFAIK, none of us use Yahoo. My ISP is a local independent business (I know, you're surprised any of those are still around), & I've been receiving email from other senders okay. (Although more recently I have to go thru the spam filter because some high-volume senders, like my daughters' school is being flagged as false positives.)

And although no one asked, yes I verified in my preferences that the email settings are correct. And no, I haven't changed any of the settings in the last month or so. -- llywrch (talk) 14:07, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Llywrch: Try emailing me. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 14:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I was able to email myself successfully with "Email this user". —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 14:31, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, what email provider do you use then? --Izno (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

You want me to publicly post here part of my email address? No offense, but that lowers my privacy a bit more than I'm comfortable with. (But if it helps you to troubleshoot, I can email you. The software allows me to email others, it just won't deliver to me. Not any more.) BTW, I tried the same feature on my account at commons earlier this morning, & that didn't work either. -- llywrch (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Llywrch: Hey, that's fine. I'm just trying to ascertain that your email provider is not one of the ones that we've had troubles with (hence why I asked about Yahoo). You should consider searching phab: for the name of the provider in question. If it's not there, either no-one else has had that problem with that provider or you're the first to complain about it.

The reason I think it is a provider issue is that I know that MediaWiki sends some headers in email that cause the email to get filtered out along the way without ever hitting your (spam) inbox (see for example previous issues with Yahoo), not because MW is doing anything bad but because the email provider is not handling the emails correctly. --Izno (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

If it is with my ISP, I'd honestly be surprised if anyone else encountered the same issue. I'm one of less than half-a-dozen Wikipedians/Wikimedians here in Portland, & I'd be surprised if one of them shared the same ISP as me. -- llywrch (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I can confirm that at least one of the editors who tried to email Llywrch not only does not use Yahoo, but thought they'd gone bust years ago. I did get my copy of the email I sent, so it got that far in the system at least. When he realised he hadn't received the email, he emailed me via email this user, and I received that, and could reply to it, with no problem. DuncanHill (talk) 14:34, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: thought they'd gone bust years ago Surprise! :) --Izno (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Note that "replying" to an email that you got from wikimail doesn't touch us at all - it is directly from you to the recipient (via your mail providers that is). — xaosflux ^Talk 14:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, now this is getting weirder. I went to AlanM1's page to email him, but that option no longer is visible to me. The only relevant options I see are "Block user", "Mute this user", & "Change user groups". I don't even understand how those would work, unless they are Admin options. (I can include a snippet of the screen shot if desired.) I'm using the legacy Vector skin, with refToolbarInstalled disabled -- but this shouldn't effect my receiving email; that's software unrelated to the Wikipedia web interface. -- llywrch (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC) P.S. I mean, the web interface shouldn't matter unless it is where my email address is stored... -- llywrch (talk) 17:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Llywrch: How about Special:EmailUser/AlanM1? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 17:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

User:AlanM1 appears to be more e-mailable than User:Llywrch. When I click on Special:EmailUser/AlanM1 it *does* open a blank message form, suggesting that it ought to work, but the same thing does NOT function when I click on Special:EmailUser/Llywrch. When I do that for Llywrch it comes back with 'Enter username of recipient', and after the next step it says "This user has not specified a valid email address". Maybe there has recently been an update to the Wikimedia code that tries to check for valid email addresses. Llywrch could try troubleshooting by turning off the checkbox that says 'allow other users to email me' and then turning it on again. That ought to require a cycle of confirmation, and you can observe whether that confirmation works. EdJohnston (talk) 18:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I'm guessing that Llywrch removed their email temporarily in the process of troubleshooting, as I was able to email them yesterday. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 18:52, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@AlanM1: Nope, I haven't changed that. (Although I am tempted to try that.) But I missed a system message I should have seen after I tried to email myself from commons, that due to multiple delivery failures, my email address has been unsubscribed." Just clicked the link, waiting on an answer. (And I tried the trick EdJohnston suggested, only to encounter an error message informing me that I needed an authenticated email address to use that feature. Am I in trouble because my account is so old -- I've had it for almost 18 years now -- that it dates before email addresses were required to be authenticated, mine never was, & now that someone has enforced that rule I am now locked out?) I'll contact my ISP & see if their mailserver reports anything. -- llywrch (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Llywrch: We know that something changed between yesterday 2020-09-29 02:02 UTC, when I was able to successfully (at least from appearances) send you an email, and today now, when it now says "This user has not specified a valid email address." If you go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-personal, the last section looks like:

Email options

Email (optional):

foo@example.com

Change or remove email address

...

Does it show an email address for you? Have you tried clicking the change button? At this point, though, it might be best to get in touch with the login/authorization problem group, though (I can't immediately find a link; might be WP:ACC; don't sysops have some secret IRC channel they can use to ask the Borg? ). I'm guessing either your email address got corrupted (somehow; unlikely), or maybe your ISP stopped accepting inbound mail from WP's SMTP server and it zapped or marked it invalid after a certain number of attempts. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 22:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC) Updated —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 22:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Part of the problem now is that my email address is now blocked because of too many unsuccessful deliveries. My ISP suggested I change my email to $USERNAME@mail.$ISP.org. Only problem is that I use my password so infrequently that I'm having problems remembering it to change my preferences. I'll update when I learn more. (PS I don't do IRC. Last time I tried to hang out in the regular IRC channel, everyone went silent while I was there. I don't do rejection well. :-) -- llywrch (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, changing my email address to my ISP's mailserver fixed it. HIIK why all of a sudden the email address I've had for 10+ years suddenly was no good. (If anyone is curious, I did ask if the mailserver reported anything in their logs & can provide a bit more info as to what went wrong.) Thanks to everyone for their help! -- llywrch (talk) 00:03, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Unless that's normally the way email addresses for that ISP are given, it seems less than ideal from a futureproofing standpoint, from what my gut remembers about configuring DNS and mailers. Anyway, I'm glad it's resolved. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:40, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

reFill

Hello. Is reFill down? Not doing anything for me. Thank you very much. Caro7200 (talk) 19:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Also not working for me - but was earlier in the day... GiantSnowman 21:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Me, too. — Maile (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

And baby makes three...er, four. (Was fine earlier.) --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 21:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yep it went down while I was in the middle of cleaning out the category. Citer is still working. It is good if the article has only a couple bare urls but if there is a bunch of them its worth waiting until refill gets going again. MarnetteD|Talk 22:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Appears to be back, thank you. Caro7200 (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Parameter in ref tags

Hello everyone, I'm from ckbwiki. Today, we published three articles on ckbiwki by using a bot and ckb:حەلەب is one of them. Now, i want to know why the third parameter (it's article name on enwiki) doesn't show the article name on enwiki? It's printed in {{{3}}}. I think the ref tags are the problem. Can someone help? Thanks! ⇒ AramTalk 22:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

No one? Any idea? ⇒ AramTalk 13:49, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Not the <ref>...</ref> tags but someone included {{{3}}} in the call to ckb:Template:بیرخستنەوەی ویکی. You can see that in the article source. I don't know what that template is but apparently it doesn't like it when |‏سەردێڕ‎={{{3}}} and |‏بەستەر‎=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{{{3}}}. Give the template proper values and I suspect that you will get proper results.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: Thank you for the response. See here. You can see the English article titles on the 3rd column from right and see the root page. Actually it works, but when I don't put the template between <ref>...</ref> tags, it's okay and {{{3}}} becomes the title of the English article, but when I put it between <ref>...</ref> tags, {{{3}}} does not become the title of the English article and it will be published as it is. The problem is not the template itself, but <ref>...</ref> tags don't let me get what I want. Is there any way to fix that? ⇒ AramTalk 20:16, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I edited ckb:حەلەب, copied this from between the <ref>...</ref> tags:

{{بیرخستنەوەی ویکی |بەستەر=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{{{3}}} |سەردێڕ={{{3}}} |زمان=ئینگلیزی |سەردان=٢٩ی ئەیلوولی ٢٠٢٠}}

Then I pasted it right at the top of the article, not inside <ref>...</ref> tags, clicked show preview and saw this (copied right off the rendering so there are no links):

ەشداربووانی ویکیپیدیا، «{{{3}}}»، ویکیپیدیای ئینگلیزی. سەردان لە ٢٩ی ئەیلوولی ٢٠٢٠.

So your claim that the 'problem' is due to <ref>...</ref> tags does not seem to be supported.

Pasting that same template call into ckb:Special:ExpandTemplates, I get this:

بەشداربووانی ویکیپیدیا، «<bdi><span class="plainlinks">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{{{3}}} {{{3}}}]</span></bdi>»، [[ویکیپیدیای ئینگلیزی]]. سەردان لە ٢٩ی ئەیلوولی ٢٠٢٠.

The problem, it seems to me, it that you are using positional parameters where you should be providing proper values for the named parameters. In article text, even in the call to a template, positional parameters like {{{3}}} have no meaning – they are just plain text which the template apparently uses to create link to en.wiki. But en.wiki does not have, nor does it allow, article titles that use the curly braces. Replace {{{3}}} with something meaningful (both instances) – I used 'Title' in the template call and the rendered template gave me a link to Title at en.wiki. Give ckb:Template:بیرخستنەوەی ویکی meaningful input and it should give you meaningful output.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:17, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

AnomieBOT

AnomieBOT hasn't been running for a day or so, and a lot of important tasks are getting missed. The talk page says Anomie's on a break, so I don't know what the best course of action is here. Thanks, –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:29, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

And just like that, it's back 🤖. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

For best results, it usually works to post on the bot's talk page, or the operator's talk page, and ping the operator. I posted at User talk:AnomieBOT, and the problem was fixed within 90 minutes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:01, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Problem with Template:Self-reference tool

As can be seen at the bottom of Alien and Darien, {{self-reference tool}} does not always integrate itself into lists, instead creating its own <ul></ul> section. Per MOS:LISTGAP this is a bad thing. (It seems to work correctly at the top of lists, however: see Western for an example.) I suspect it's being caused by the comments in the template code, but I am not sure. Eman235/talk 22:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eman235: Fixed in Special:Diff/981211097. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:16, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Eman235/talk 03:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Random article — exactly what does it do?

Hi, I'm interested in using Special:Random to collect statistics about articles. For example, what fraction are biographies, what fraction are US-centric, etc.. This is not for inclusion in articles (which would be OR) but to inform discussion and perhaps for external mention. I'm prepared to hit the button a couple of hundred times and examine what comes up, using standard statistical sampling analysis to assess the results. But this exercise would be futile if Special:Random provides a skewed selection of articles. Can it be assumed that each article has equal chance of being chosen? Answering this question probably requires precise technical knowledge of how it is implemented. Thanks. Zero^talk 14:20, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: See GlobalFunctions::wfRandom. --Izno (talk) 14:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

From some very old notes: Each page is created with a random number in range [0,1) (from and including 0, up to but not including 1), called page_random and indexed. Special:Random chooses a random number and returns the next article with a higher page_random value. The result can be filtered ($wgExtraRandompageSQL) to try again if a specified condition is met. The default namespace is main (articles). You can append a namespace, for example: Special:Random/User. Johnuniq (talk) 00:54, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. The facility seems to satisfy my needs. Zero^talk 02:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Such statistics have been generated before, probably by some other method than a sample of random articles. See e.g. Wikipedia:Statistics, Systemic bias in Wikipedia Gender bias on Wikipedia#The gender gap in content for some. Personally, if I were to whip up some stats, I'd either use Template:Category count or make a Wikidata query. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Maryland (not a bug, just curious)

Referring to WP:Teahouse#Maryland, I noticed that the third oldest edit to Maryland is showing a change of around 80 thousand bytes. I am curious to know whether this was because some edits were not accounted for or what kind of bug caused this, so could someone enlighten me on how this happens? 45.251.33.149 (talk) 15:59, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

See this recent thread. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:09, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Accessing archived references

I know that this isn't, strictly speaking, a WP issue, but it arises for me here because this (WP) is the only place i try and access archive.org pages. If i click on this link [https://web.archive.org/web/20180717013125/https://www.indomiliter.com/panhard-vbl-penjaga-rumah-boediono/] in List of equipment of the Indonesian Army i get a Unable to connect Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at web.archive.org message from my browser. This happens with every single archive link i try and verify (in every article i try, not just the one i mentioned), yet i know the links are active because i've used IABot to find them.. I will be ever so grateful if someone can tell me why this happens and what i need to do to stop it, because there are a lot of archived references i'd like to work with. I expect it's something very simple, silly even, so don't be worried about offending me by pointing out my complete lack of technical skill or understanding. Thanks in advance; happy days, Lindsay^Hello 18:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@LindsayH:: are you on a filtered internet connection? It's relatively common for strict DNS-based web filters to block web.archive.org, because unless your computer is configured to cooperate with the filter, it's impossible to tell which archived page you're looking at. Vahurzpu (talk) 18:17, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Can you get to https://web.archive.org/ at all? If not, try it on a different device (like a phone or a computer), on a different internet connection (e.g. if you are having trouble on wireless, try a phone without wireless). Also try a different web browser (Chrome, Safari). – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Anecdotally, I had that problem for a little while with one browser (though links worked in other browsers), then after awhile the problem went away. I surmised it was a browser problem that had gotten fixed on the back end. Schazjmd (talk) 18:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Vahurzpu, i don't even know what a filtered internet connection is. My laptop is plugged in directly to my router which is plugged into my broadband and i don't think i've got any software limiting what i can do or where i can go.

Jonesey95, i cannot connect to https://web.archive.org/ at all, neither in Firefox nor in Chrome (Chrome says This site can’t be reached web.archive.org refused to connect, which i assume is essentially the same as the Firefox message). I can get to the site on my phone, which uses a wireless connexion to the same router; i guess i can use the phone to look up what i need and then type the entries into the browser on the laptop; less than ideal, but it should work. Thanks for the help and suggestions; happy days, Lindsay^Hello 19:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

What operating system? --Izno (talk) 20:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Windows 10, presumably the most recent version since MS does that cool "We're gonna update you whether you're ready or not" thing; Firefox 80.0.1. And the phone, which does work, is Android 9, which claims it is the current and up to date; happy days, Lindsay^Hello 21:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Lindsay, is it all of archive.org or just the web archives (I see you can't get to the subdomain above, but there are other parts of the site)? Do you live in a country with any marginally censorious regime? Have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling one of the browsers of interest (I'm wondering now if it is possibly one of your security certificates became corrupted; I don't know why that would impact just Archive.org). When your mobile can access it, is it connected wirelessly to your home router? I think the only other possibility pending/confirmed by those answers is that your ISP is blocking access. --Izno (talk) 02:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Raleigh Memphis, Tennessee

I think the article name should be Raleigh, Memphis. An editor recently moved the page, and I'd fix it but there are a bunch of redirects. Thanks for your help! Magnolia677 (talk) 19:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Category:Neighborhoods in Tennessee might be the norm to follow. This looks to have been originally named Raleigh, Memphis, Tennessee, as that is how it is in the Template: Memphis, Tennessee. It was redirected to the one above by Bneu2013 in April 2020. If there was anything on the discussion page before it was moved, I do not see it. — Maile (talk) 19:47, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia. Has. Been. Very. Slow..... Lately

Is this just my crappy laptop or is there an issue with Wiki's servers? The pic upload on here and Wikicommons have also been particularly slow the past month or so. WisDom-UK (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

phab:T262239 - and the replag - Yes, it's been going on at least since early September. — Maile (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Navbox funny display

I just noticed the navboxes at the bottom of Cijin District, Kaohsiung look rather strange on my browser. Can anyone else see what I mean? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:09, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

The article was damaged by This edit about 9 hours ago. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 21:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Ganbaruby has just fixed it. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 21:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Woah, didn't even realize that I did. Nice. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 21:48, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what happened there either, but it's looking better now — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Most likely MediaWiki wasn't sure if the <li> from the note section was closed (there was a matching /li at the end) because it was mixed with wikitext list syntax, in which scenario it would 100% be due to the Remex processing changes from a few years ago. I expect that kind of parse failure would cause similar behavior to this case here. I suspect another fix would have been to be explicit about where the unordered lists started and stopped; hard to do with wikitext, but could have been done with the li and closing li. When he moved it to a refn template above, that made it clear to MediaWiki what was going on and corrected the navbox issue. --Izno (talk) 17:13, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@SSastry (WMF): just as an FYI this happened; pretty sure it doesn't need explanation or fixing, but I'm sure you'd like to know about the anecdote ;). --Izno (talk) 17:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@Izno: Thanks for the pointer! My brain is fried after a week of wikitext and html so I cannot immediately tell what happened there but glad it is all fixed. :-) SSastry (WMF) (talk) 21:30, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Logged Out Forcefully

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T264370

I was logged out in the middle of browsing. Is there something amiss with the servers? -- Veggies (talk) 21:52, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Just been logged out on desktop and phone. DuncanHill (talk) 21:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

This happened to me too, and my notifications were also briefly messed up when I logged back in. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Me too, just now - twice today, and once yesterday. — Maile (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:ITSTHURSDAY, perhaps? Mz7 (talk) 22:04, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Me too. Last time it was a security breach, mentioned in The Signpost: another round of forced logouts. Bri.public (talk) 22:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  Maybe they found another security hole, see Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 182#Logged out automatically II and Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 182#logged out automatically II. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:11, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Couldn't be bothered checking another device I was logged in and wasn't sure if I had somehow accidentally logged out or it was another case of the WMF killing sessions probably because of a bug so came to check. Nil Einne (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• phab:T264370. --Yair rand (talk) 22:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  Also announced in Wikitech like last times [1] Nil Einne (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  And just like the last times no announcement on en-wiki. DuncanHill (talk) 22:20, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  It was clearly announced on an obscure message board's talk page, with no wikilinks to it, guarded by a tiger.. --Masem (t) 22:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  Well the phab was opened 8 minutes after the start of this thread or 14 minutes before it was posted here or about 27 minutes ago. The Wikitech announcement was made about 24 minutes after the start of this thread or about 2 minutes before I posted it or about 12 minutes ago. Someone could come now to tell us what we already know, but I'm not sure I see the point. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the smaller wikis who may have fewer editors able to find out these things, and where many of the editors may not even be able to read either of those announcements. Nil Einne (talk) 22:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  An IMO more interesting issue is that although "Incidents are documented at https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incident_documentation>", this seems to be the documentation for the June incident which I guess is maybe supposed to cover the July one too and now over 3 months later, all it does is link to the mailing list report and one Phabricator task. Nil Einne (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  Another minor but IMO still more pertinent question is whether the logout really happened at 7:43 UTC and took ~14 hours to take effect, or it happened maybe at 21:43 UTC and someone put the wrong time (maybe from a calculation error) and/or time zone. Nil Einne (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  I have asked that question on the phab thing. DuncanHill (talk) 23:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  And in response the time has been changed from 7:43 UTC to 21:48 UTC. DuncanHill (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Preferences and Watchlist not navigable after forced re-login

After Wikipedia logs me out (which it does periodically for some reason), when I re-log in several functionalities are...not functional for a shortish period. In Preferences, I can't switch to other tabs (e.g. Appearance, Gadgets): the buttons just don't work. On my Watchlist, the filter widget at the top just displays the three grey circles indicating it's loading, but it never does. The collapsible arrows for the nested changes lists do not expand and don't have the filled blue dot next to them. The last time this happened the issue mysteriously resolved after I inspected the page. I don't remember what I did previous times (other than switch from Chrome to FireFox). Anyone have suggestions for what the problem is? JoelleJay (talk) 23:59, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

My out-of-the-blue guess would be that your browser is caching some of the page components that mismatch with the primary page. Perhaps forcing your browser to reload all page components would help. isaacl (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

JoelleJay, Another thing to try in cases like this is to open an incognito window and log into that. That's largely the same as clearing your cache, but slightly less disruptive. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Note that the instructions under the "Bypassing cache" section won't clear your cache, but just force your browser to reload the page components. isaacl (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wayback Machine no longer saves archives

On [2], it shows that there haven't been any archives since Sep 27, yet I have saved this page every day and when I go to the ".../web/*/..." page on those days that day's archive shows up. For example, see todays; it shows up now but won't tomorrow. What can I do to actually get these archives to work?  Nixinova   T   C   (ping to reply) 03:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

It's not just that page, every archive I've made over the past week or so doesn't work. I hope this is just a fetching issue and not that these archives no longer exist...  Nixinova   T   C   03:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a new snapshot, taken within the last hour. A check of a few other sites implies that the WBM was not collecting (much? Anything?) in the last 4 days. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 08:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

See, now that link does not show any saves on Oct 2. The links that worked yesterday don't today. This is very frustrating.  Nixinova   T   C   20:02, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I've made a post on the Archive.org forums about this: [3]  Nixinova   T   C   06:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

And they're all back now, good.  Nixinova   T   C   01:46, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Strange User Page

How did this happen? NonsensicalSystem^(err0r?)_(.log) 13:01, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

It's a page with the title Editing User:Mungkorn789/sandbox. I see it's now been deleted. – SD0001 (talk) 13:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

It is in the Main namespace, so the title is rather evil but it is technically valid (see WP:NC-COLON and WP:NC-SLASH) and it seems that the "article" can just be created — see Editing User:GhostInTheMachine or Editing User:GhostInTheMachine/sandbox. Regardless, it has just been deleted. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:26, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

What should live preview do on user CSS/JS?

Even with the live preview on (Preferences → Editing → Show previews without reloading the page), previewing a user CSS or JavaScript reloads the entire page just like when it's off. This is ostensibly to allow users to test the code as the "tip" above the edit box informs them, which is basically impossible without reloading the page. Its implementation, however, has a couple of problems:

• Not just live preview but live diff is unavailable for user CSS/JS.
• You can only test the code once. When you've already previewed the script once, the live preview takes over and simply shows you the new code without running it. You have to go back one page in order to test it again.

I thought I'd figured out how to fix these so I submitted a patch, only to be told by Ammarpad, the above patch does not actually fix the bug, it just worked it around by 'disabling the live preview feature'. In other words, it means ignoring users' preferences (for live preview) on user config pages at all. Which I found perplexing because the status quo already does go out of its way to "ignore users' preferences on user config pages" and the patch is all about doing it less (for live diff) and in a more consistent manner (reloading more than once). (I now know a better way to achieve it so you can abandon the patch now, which I don't seem authorized to.) Ammarpad also made me aware of an older task, T186390, that covered the same ground (which I'm grateful for) so I merged my task with it, but AFAICT that task also advocates for the same thing as the patch (it works the first time, but not afterwards ... live preview should just disable itself on JS pages). But since no one has further responded on Gerrit or Phab, I want to ask editors here before resubmitting the patch.

TL;DR: (1) Should live preview disable itself on user CSS/JS (as it currently does)? (2) Should it disable itself more than once (which it currently doesn't)? (3) Should live diff be available for user CSS/JS (which it currently isn't)? Nardog (talk) 09:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the option should be ignored on pages where it doesn't work. At least then people aren't surprised when it "stops working". We can leave the patch open to explain that there's probably more work that could be done to make the option actually work ina context I would not expect it to. --Izno (talk) 02:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Izno: Okay, I've updated the patch now. I hope it's clearer what I'm trying to do. Nardog (talk) 10:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Split links at cite template like harvnb and sfn into two different links

I propose that the sfn and harvnb template be divided into two links.

Currently, if we click a link in harvnb or sfn, say Foo (2016), p. 36, it will link into the book in the bibliography.

What if we split the links? Foo (2016) if clicked will link to the book in the bibliography, while p. 36 will link into the direct url of that page.

Google books supports these kind of directly linking into books. This link, books.google.com/books?id=I_IVAQAAMAAJ links into the book cover/the overview, while books.google.com/books?id=I_IVAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA20 links directly to the specific page. This is quite useful for old books which resides in google books. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 13:47, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

You can already do that with {{harvnb}}, {{sfn}}, and other related templates. Just wrap the page number in a link to the page at Google Books, archive.org, or another site, like this: – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Probably not fake? I requested for not fake. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 15:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't look fake to me. What would you prefer that is flexible enough to handle a page link to any other website? --Izno (talk) 02:19, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry if the word "Fake" was misleading in the headers below. I have changed it to "Example". – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Example bibliography section

• Smith (2000). Title.

Example References section

References

Technical volunteer needed for Arbitration Committee Elections

Due to an RfC update, the candidates page which typically randomizes the transclusion order of ArbCom candidates, should only randomize once for a given user and then stay fixed. The easiest way to implement this would be some form of hashing and then sorting by the hash, which will attain psuedo-randomness per user and then stay fixed for each user. This requires a Lua module, and I am not very experienced with Lua. If anyone is up to the task, please let me know, so I can work with you on getting this set up for this year's elections.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 14:08, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to the code at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019/Candidates#Standing candidates which appears as follows.

{{#invoke:random|list|separator=newline
|{{Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019/Candidates/First candidate/Statement}}
|{{Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019/Candidates/Second candidate/Statement}}
|{{Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019/Candidates/Third candidate/Statement}}
|{{Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019/Candidates/Fourth candidate/Statement}}
}}

That uses Module:Random which will render the list of statements in a different order each time the page is purged. There is no way Lua can make the list stay in a fixed order for each logged-in editor reading the page. I'm pretty sure Lua cannot discover the reader's user name, and even if it could, Lua has no mechanism to store per-user or any other kind of data. Some JavaScript might be able to handle that by putting it in the browser's local storage or a cookie, but I don't know if there is a precedent for a site-wide script to do something like that. The caching mechanism of MediaWiki is opposed to any procedure that attempts to show different text to different users. Johnuniq (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Actually, there's one clever way it could be done. Much of the MediaWiki interface is re-rendered for each user, and within it, {{REVISIONUSER}} is the user who's looking at the page. We could seed the RNG with the username. The only tricky part is figuring out whether or not we have somewhere suitable in the interface where we can inject such code without affecting the rest of the site. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the magic words. There is some confusion because Help:Magic words#Other variables by type has a note "This shows the last user to edit the page. There is no way to show the user viewing the page due to technical restrictions." Here is a test:

• User = {{REVISIONUSER}} → User = Nardog

Even if that worked, the next step would be tricky. Johnuniq (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Doesn't {{REVISIONUSER}} store the user who last edited the page, not the user who is currently viewing it? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pppery: On regular pages, it's the user who last edited the page. But in parts of the interface, it is the user who's currently viewing it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:50, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Correction: I'm almost positive this worked somewhere at some point, but now when I try it on testwiki, it just gives me the empty string. Back to the drawing board I guess. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

As I commented on the RFC, this requires either a Javascript or a PHP implementation (Lua does not and will likely never know who is viewing a page), and I already discussed that probably neither option is a good other option. It is unfortunate my comment was not paid heed to. --Izno (talk) 02:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Double edit summary?

Lately I've noticed that on some - not all - edits, a double edit summary box appears. See example screenshot (from Japan). When editing a section or performing some other edit that would result in text appearing by default in the edit summary, both boxes are filled; however, only a summary entered in the second box is saved. Any idea why this is happening? I'm using Firefox 81 and Modern skin. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: are you using WikiEd? Sounds like the issue under discussion at User talk:Cacycle/wikEd#wikEd bug report: two boxes for edit summary. Nthep (talk) 16:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Yep, that'd be it, thanks. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:55, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Page Size tool has disappeared and pop-up referencing anchors aren't working either.

The page size tool has disappeared for me. It only seems to appear when editing a page. If I click it in that state it says "you need to preview the page" but when you do, the Page Size link disappears again. I'm on Chrome. Similarly the hover-over reference pop ups have stopped as well, and the search suggestion drop down is also inconsistently working. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Can you report what is in your browser console as described here? Ruslik_Zero 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Why no ping?

In this edit[4], I tried to ping to a list of editors.

However, subsequent comments at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 October 3#Category:Arts show that most (maybe all) of the editors didn't get the ping.

I presume that I screwed up somehow, but I can't see an error.

Can anyone figure out what went wrong? I'd like to avoid repeating my error. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Because you also edited your previous comment, your change looked like an edit, not a new comment. The system tries to avoid pinging people twice and it uses a simple procedure of only pinging when a new comment is added. An alternative would have been to link to each user in the edit summary (cannot use a template for that). Johnuniq (talk) 01:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks, Johnuniq. I hadn't spotted that.

i will try in future to remember to do pings without also tweaking a previous comment. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Copy-and-paste translation of source content of non-English page

Hello VP, there's problem of copy-and-paste wikitable content of Oteckovia in Slovak language to the List of Oteckovia episodes with full translation to English, that I failed to do action. Can you copy the Part section of the Slovak language of Oteckovia to the English Wikimedia list article by yourself? The Supermind (talk) 09:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)