Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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Redlink to existing page

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T293707

Hello! I'm seeing something rather peculiar. In Special:PageHistory/Template:COVID-19 data/data, there are links to User:TolBot/Task 5, a soft redirect to Meta-Wiki, in my bot's edit summaries — but, despite the page existing, the links are red. When I click on a diff, the link is blue, and anywhere outside of an edit summary it's also blue. I've tried with safemode, so I don't think it's me. Can anybody else verify this or help me figure out what's going on? Thanks. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 21:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I see the link in the most recent edit as blue, and the others as red. Moving to the previous 100, all are blue. Filtering by date to exclude today's two changes, all are blue. It looks like a minor bug. Certes (talk) 22:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I only see one "Task 5" blue link at the history of Template:COVID-19 data/data. It is the most recent. The reason it is blue is that the wikitext is [[m:User:TolBot/Task 5|Task 5]] whereas the others omit m:. I tried to purge the history page but of course it only purged the template and that did not help. Weird. I don't see how it's related, but I asked about a red link problem here. Johnuniq (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

There was recently an overhaul of how edit summaries ("comments") are formatted on history pages, this might be another regression from that. I would suggest filing a bug in Phabricator for this, as the output clearly is wrong given User:TolBot/Task 5 exists on this wiki. Legoktm (talk) 05:50, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

And notably on other pages, such as the changevisibility controls page, the show as blue links. So looks like a bug of sorts on the history view page. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:46, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. I've filed a task. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 21:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

This also happens for user pages that don't exist here but do exist at Meta, when a cross-wiki transclusion occurs - see for instance the two links to Explicit's user page in these edits. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

wrong sort by coordinates in class "wikitable sortable" table

This is how the table should like after the first click on the "Coordinates" column: coordinates must increase from the Northern Pole to the Southern. (The second click on each column displays the reverse order; if you tried to click anything here, return to the default view via refreshing screen with F5).

Meteorological hardware on Mars

Landing order	Mission	Coordinates	From	To	sols	Device	Zone
6	Phoenix	68.2188°N 125.7492°W / 68.2188; -125.7492	25.05.2008	28.10.2008	152	MET	subarctic
1	Viking-2	47.64°N 225.71°W / 47.64; -225.71	04.09.1976	12.04.1980	1281	(NASA)	moderate
10	Zhurong	25.1°N 109.9°E / 25.1; 109.9	22.05.2021		154	MCS	moderate
2	Viking-1	22.27°N 312.05°E / 22.27; 312.05	20.07.1976	11.11.1982	2243	(NASA)	moderate
3	Pathfinder	19°7′48″N 33°13′12″W	04.07.1997	27.09.1997	83	ASI/MET	subtropical
9	Perseverance	18.4447°N 77.4508°E / 18.4447; 77.4508	18.02.2021		251	MEDA	subtropical
8	InSight	4.5024°N 135.6234°E / 4.5024; 135.6234	26.11.2018		1037	TWINS	equatorial
5	Opportunity	1.9462°S 354.4734°E / -1.9462; 354.4734	25.01.2004	10.06.2018	5110	solar panel	equatorial
7	Curiosity	4.5895°S 137.4417°E / -4.5895; 137.4417	06.08.2012		3279	REMS	equatorial
4	Spirit	14.5684°S 175.472636°E / -14.5684; 175.472636	04.01.2004	01.05.2009	1892	solar panel	subtropical

However, now the sort engine of "wikitable sortable" treats the contents of cells with the {{coord|47.64|...}} template either as plain figures with a float decimal or as string constants. It brings the whole idea of sorting by coordinates to an absurd, because southern and nothern latitudes are mixed disregarding the value of the hemisphere parameter (N or S)

Foreseeing the questions like 'why latitude not longitude':
sorting by longitude (E or W) doesn't arise in the tables with geographic, climatic, astronomic etc. material. However the necessity to sort by latitude arises often when the readers to group the table contents. For these reasons I kindly ask the technicians to improve the "wikitable sortable" engine with a patch providing the accurate sorting by latitude (given the values are properly put into the "{{coord|...|...}}" template).

Programmatically this patch is short and easy:
- if the parser encounters the {{coord|...|...}} template in the cell =>
=> then it must search for additional hemisphere criteria (|N| or |S| enclosed in the straight brackets) =>
=> if the hemisphere is "S", the numeric key used for sorting does not change;
while if it equals "N", then the value must be converted to negative (multiply by –1).

Thank you in advance, Cherurbino (talk) 13:08, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

You may use data-sort-value="arbitrary value" to force a sort order if you are having issues, as in e.g. | data-sort-value="68.2188" | 68.2188 N X E or | data-sort-value="-68.2188" | 68.2188 S X W. Izno (talk) 13:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

thank you, but this code shall not work until the values inside the {{coord|...}} shall be converted into the numeric array from -90 (Northern Pole) to +90 (Southern Pole). This array should not be explicitly visible for the readers; it should be kept within the virtual code space Cherurbino (talk) 13:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Or, if the trick is in the | data-sort-value="-68.2188" | 68.2188 S X W clause, could you show it directly by editing my sample here (or in my sandbox)& Cherurbino (talk) 13:28, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Try that. --Izno (talk) 13:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Of course, you can be less precise if you have few enough values that you don't think any of them will sort wrongly. I would suggest you avoid trying to stuff the longitude into the data-sort-value in any way since several digits of precision of the latitude should be enough to separate all the values cleanly, but if you really want you could probably make it work out somehow. Izno (talk) 13:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Keeping the manual opened)) I kept on trying with the header line in my sandbox. However the pipe (straight quote "|") in your argument "-68.2188" | 68.2188 S X W messed all my table. Now I see, your solution is in inserting this clause in each line of the table. Of course, it shall work - but only for one table, while there are hundreds of other tables with the "coords" templates. This is a palliative, while I seeked for the universal solution for everybody. Thank you, anyway, for your time and kind attention Cherurbino (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

A "universal" solution is probably not forthcoming. At least one dev I know has complained about the complexity of the code in this area. :^) Izno (talk) 14:54, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Could it be a good idea to amend the WP:TABLESORT help page with the sample for the coordinates' values? Cherurbino (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Instead of a bare pipe | try using the special five-character sequence {{!}}. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:54, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

The table sorter is client-side JavaScript. That means it cannot see the wikisource or the template-expanded wikitext. It can only see the HTML sent to your browser. In your example, {{coord|68.2188|N|125.7492|W|globe:Mars}} becomes:

<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r994658806">.mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}</style><span class="plainlinks nourlexpansion"><a class="external text" href="//geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&params=68.2188_N_125.7492_W_globe:Mars"><span class="geo-nondefault"><span class="geo-dms" title="Maps, aerial photos, and other data for this location"><span class="latitude">68°13′08″N</span> <span class="longitude">125°44′57″W</span></span></span><span class="geo-multi-punct"> / </span><span class="geo-default"><span class="geo-dec" title="Maps, aerial photos, and other data for this location">68.2188°N 125.7492°W</span><span style="display:none"> / <span class="geo">68.2188; -125.7492</span></span></span></a></span>

That's the output of a specific template at a specific wiki. The table sorter is used by many wikis in many languages. I don't think it would be good use of developer time to try to make this work when it's only relevant for sortable columns of coordinates on both hemispheres. However, outputting a sortkey could be an optional feature of {{coord}}. Then there could also be a choice between North-South and West-East sorting. It can be suggested on the talk page. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:47, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Distinguishing between the hemispheres is the language-indepenent issue. Pure mathematics common to the whole world. Now sorting by coordinates returns wrong output: north is mixed with south. Solution of this problem is purely mathematical: if table sorter comes across the 'coord' template, then values for 'N' within it should be treated as negative. Cherurbino (talk) 18:45, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Were it "purely mathematical", you would not have multiple editors tell you that what you are asking for is not going to happen as you wish. I have provided an alternative as has PrimeHunter; I suggest that you look into one or the other. Izno (talk) 18:51, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Were this problem unsolvable, we would not see the examples, that it is already solved in some of the wiki engines. Let's take the Template:Mars map and the services putting the 'dots' on this map. This template dosn't mix N and S; it means that somebody has already written the code assigning negative values for 'N' in order to pass this argument to the proc, that calculates X and Y offsets necessary to set these 'dots'. Cherurbino (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say this problem was unsolvable, I said you weren't going to get what you want. Please do not put words in my mouth. Izno (talk) 19:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I also didn't mean personally you constatating the unsolvability. It was a mere rhetorics when the fact 'nobody solves' is spread within the undistinguished community; nothing pesonal. Meanwhile, another example of solutions already found are infoboxes like {{Infobox crater data. User wraps the coordinates into the 'coord' template, and passes then to some underlying procedure which converts N and S values into the numeric offsets to place red 'dots' over the canvas of MOLA map. Cherurbino (talk) 19:18, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Re: you would not have multiple editors tell you that what you are asking for is not going to happen as you wish - the arguments of PrimeHunter were not based on the subject. He told me about 'multiple wikies' while distinguising N and S is not a matter of national localization, and the long snippet he quoted does not contain the code relevant to sorting procedure. Which occurs later, maybe at geohack.toolforge.org — Cherurbino (talk) 19:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Dear Izno, I feel we shall not find the answer here, so I propose to close the discussion topic. Thank you for your attention, as well as for the palliative you proposed. Best regards, Cherurbino (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Cherurbino: As regards whether north or south is negative, there's a simple test. Omit the hemispheres from {{coord}}, and use negative values instead - see where you end up. For example, {{coord|-22.911|-43.205|type:city|display=inline}} → 22.911°S 43.205°W / -22.911; -43.205. So there you are, negative is south and we won't change that. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Dear Redrose64! Thanks for your sample I found the way to override the problem which didn't allow me to use the numeric +/- syntax before:

source	code	result	comments
Cherurbino	{{coord|68.2188|N|125.7492|W|globe:Mars}}	68.2188°N 125.7492°W / 68.2188; -125.7492	present state
Redrose64	{{coord|-22.911|-43.205|type:city|display=inline}}	22.911°S 43.205°W / -22.911; -43.205	sample
Cherurbino	{{coord|68.2188|-125.7492|type:city|display=inline}}	68.2188°N 125.7492°W / 68.2188; -125.7492	test OK
Cherurbino	{{coord|68.2188|-125.7492|globe:Mars|display=inline}}	68.2188°N 125.7492°W / 68.2188; -125.7492	test fails due to the

The parser does not allow to use purely numeric coordinates' values for globe:Mars parameter! OK, I shall declare Mars as a kind of 'city'))). Thank you very-very much for this lifehack... and I gotta feeling that our respected colleagues Izno and PrimeHunter shall breathe a sigh of relief after such a boring interlocutor like me shall leave the thread completely satisfied that his problem was solved. Thank you, everybody! Cherurbino (talk) Cherurbino (talk) 11:51, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

You apparently didn't understand what I wrote. Let me repeat in bold: The table sorter is client-side JavaScript. That means it cannot see the wikisource or the template-expanded wikitext. It can only see the HTML sent to your browser. "client-side" means it runs in your own browser on your own computer. It doesn't run on a Wikimedia server where the wikitext is stored. You wrote "if table sorter comes across the 'coord' template". It doesn't. It never comes across any template. It only comes across HTML. I quoted the exact HTML it comes across in your example at the English Wikipedia. In other wikis there will be different HTML, and sometimes local terms instead of N and S. Coordinates can also be formatted in several ways. It would be difficult to make the table sorter work reasonably reliably on coordinates across languages and formats. I can think of many more useful table sorter features the developers could use time on. Here are ten:

1. Descend: Option to sort a column in descending order on the first click (often best for numbers).
2. Surname: Sort by surname, e.g. sort "first names surname" by "surname, first names" when no sortkey is given.
3. Ignore: Specify words/strings to ignore in sorting, e.g "more than", "less than", "circa" in number sorting.
4. Regex: Specify a regular expression replacement to apply to each cell to make the sortkey.
5. Empty: Option to sort empty cells at the end in both ascending and descending (empty often means missing data, usually no reason to sort it at top in ascending).
6. Hide: Hide selected rows in sorting (instead of just sortbottom).
7. Colspan: Option to give a colspan cell different sort keys for different columns.
8. Transpose: Make sortable rows instead of or in addition to sortable columns.
9. Restore: Restore the original display, including rowspans and sort-bottom rows in their original position.
10. Initial: Specify a column to initially sort by before clicking anything.

Some of these can be accomplished in specific tables with sort keys but so can your coordinates. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:31, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Dear PrimeHunter! As you see above, the problem has found its solution. I apologize for dragging you into the discussion of the specific programming side of the problem. It was not useless for those who have read it, includind myself. Now I know more than before coming here, and everybody has got an example of finding non-trivial solution for the non-trivial problem. As for you personally: you demonstrated the high level of professionalism in your field, and Wikipedia must be proud of such volunteers like you. Thank you, everybody! Cherurbino (talk) Cherurbino (talk) 11:51, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Styles of level 2 and level 3 headings

Recently completed the Compiler page in the Oberon tutorial. I expect higher level headings to be more prominent than lower level headings. For example, "Tutorial objective" and "Introduction" (level 2) should be more prominent than the subsection "A first example" (level 3). In appearance, prominence is reversed. Levels 2 and 3 headings are rendered in a similar font size but level 3 is bold. Can anyone explain? A bug in MediaWiki? Can it be corrected? Thx, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 14:35, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@PeterEasthope: As far as I can tell, everything looks as intended in Vector, Monobook, and Timeless. Judging from your description, you're using Monobook, which is the only skin of the three that has bold h3s and regular h2s with the same font. If you just want to swap the font weight of the two (on your end only), you can add the following to your monobook.css on Wikibooks:

h2 {
  font-weight: bold;
}
h3 {
  font-weight: normal;
}

– Rummskartoffel 15:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Skin has examples of the four skins. Can the skin be identified visually? Something more certain? In Monobook, the links in the left margin are framed. In Vector, the links are listed with no frames. Please have a look at the UEFA Euro 2012 Final page. In default Vector style I see level 2, "Route to the final" in plain face; level 3, "Spain" in bold face. Why is the subordinate heading more prominent than the superordinate heading? Thx, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 04:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that the level 3 headings are more prominent in any of these four skins, though they do look too similar for my taste in Timeless. I don't know the exact design decisions that went into making the headings look the way they do, since I'm not a developer; for that, consider asking a member of the Web team. In any case, I'm not seeing a bug here. – Rummskartoffel 12:09, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that the level 3 headings are more prominent in any of these four skins

To the best of my understanding, J. Doe with a default environment will see level 2 headings in plain face; level 3 in bold face; similar or same font size in both. Most people will agree that bold is more prominent than plain.... PeterEasthope (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

... consider asking a member of the Web team.

Will do, thanks.... PeterEasthope (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I also find level 3 more prominent than level 2. I'm used to it now, but was initially confused as L2 seemed to be a subsection within L3. I use Legacy Vector (if I'd wanted a narrow screen, I'd have bought one) but standard Vector has similar headings. Certes (talk) 13:09, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Me to. I use Monobook and H3s are bold and look more prominent which always seemed wrong. MB 16:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

C>I'm used to it now, but was initially confused as L2 seemed to be a subsection within L3.

We all accepted it for too long. Ref. The Emperor's New Clothes. Regards, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I guess this is all a matter of subjective personal taste, but I, for one, see level 2 headings as clearly superior to the L3–L6s. After all, they're in a larger typeface and they have that great, big horizontal rule stretching all the way across the page. I think one of the Vector skins shows me no discernable difference between H5 and H6 (only), but in my usual skin, Monobook, all the levels are clearly and recognizably differently sized. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 22:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly skin-dependent. I've checked out four properties (font-family, font-weight, border-bottom and font-size) for all six heading levels in four skins. Three properties are easily summarised:

• MonoBook uses a normal-weight sans-serif font for all heading levels
• Timeless uses a normal-weight serif font for all heading levels
• Vector and Minerva use a serif font for levels 1 and 2 only, but sans-serif for levels 3, 4, 5 and 6
• Vector and Minerva use bold for levels 3 and 4 only, normal weight for levels 1, 2, 5 and 6
• MonoBook, Timeless and Vector show bottom borders (n.b. not horizontal rules) for levels 1 and 2 only, none for levels 3 to 6 - Minerva does not use borders at all.

The fourth is best presented as a table:

The font-size: property

Level	MonoBook	Timeless	Vector	Minerva
h1	188%	2em	1.8em	1.7em
h2	150%	1.8em	1.5em	1.5em
h3	128%	1.6em	1.2em	1.2em
h4	116%	1.4em	100%	100%
h5	108%	1.25em
h6	100%	1.2em

The Vector results are the same for "old" and "new" variants. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

"Old" is post-mw:Typography refresh Vector, rather than "original" Vector. The last major update to Vector was in late 2013 and 2014. That was when the ==Level 2 section headings== started using a serif font. If memory serves, this decision was driven by research (e.g., what font is easiest for people to read on a computer screen) rather than someone's aesthetic view.

About making changes: The archives for this page will show many people complaining about it the day that it hit, some people still complaining a week or two later, and only one or two editors still unhappy with it a month or two later. Apparently we hate having the fonts changed, but we get used to the new appearance on approximately the same time schedule that every other major website has found. I would expect the same outcome if similar changes are made in the future. Partly because of remembering that experience, I've stuck with the default skin at sites that have adopted New Vector. I've encountered some hiccups along the way, and re-locating the search box has proven to be surprisingly difficult for me to adapt to (but maybe if all the wikis were the same, I'd have gotten used to it faster?), but it no longer seems foreign and bad, and I have found one clear advantage: I haven't ever accidentally clicked the "Log out" button in New Vector.

(Important note to anyone thinking about changing the fonts in the future: Please don't.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Tooltip and dialog box text for suggested translation links in left sidebar is not all English

When an article at en-wiki doesn't exist in any other language, I usually get a few "suggested" languages to translate into in the left sidebar under the 'Languages' heading, where language links would appear had there been articles in other languages. In my case, French is one of those languages that often appears. The text in the left sidebar is français, exactly as it would be if a fr-wiki article existed. (Well, not exactly; the font is a lighter shade; approximately #72777D.) But the hover text is different.

Hovering over français in the language links section of the sidebar when there is no French article pops up the tooltip "Translate this page into français". Clicking the link pops up a dialog box, which starts off with the bold heading, This page does not exist in français yet. Do you want to create it?

This is English Wikipedia, and in my opinion, both the tooltip and the dialog box should both be written entirely in English (with the possible exception of adding a parenthetical appositive; e.g., "Translate this page into French (français)" would be fine. I don't have an objection to the long-standing practice of leaving the rendered text of language names in the list of language links in the native language; my question/complaint regards the language of the tooltip text, and of the pop-up dialog box. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

This seems like a reasonable task to put in Phabricator, starting with the Language-team team project. They should be able to sort it into an appropriate component project. Izno (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

We can also do it locally in MediaWiki:Cx-entrypoint-title and MediaWiki:Cx-entrypoint-dialog-page-doesnt-exist-yet by testing $1. We don't appear to currently have a feature to get the language code from the native language name like français, but we could make it. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:50, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Realistically, this suggestion is primarily intended for people fluent in the destination language - if you can't easily read the name of the destination language in its native format - you probably shouldn't be trying to create articles on that other project. Am I missing a part of this? — xaosflux ^Talk 13:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Updating infobox templates

Scenario: 10k articles use the same infobox template. That template has code that hasn't been changed for 10 years (consider it deprecated). New template is ready. What are some advices and tips for the best workflow which causes the less amount of chaos with articles? Asking for cases outside of EnWiki. - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Tell us more about the changes. Are there incompatible parameters? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF), at most cases, no. But let's assume I have around 10 infoboxes suffering from the same problem and some of they may have totally new code syntax, for example having changed from traditional wiki text to Lua module invocations.

Real situation: Admin at SqWiki. Some infoboxes are outdated, we want to update them mirroring EnWiki. It's been month we've postponed that because we're worried about the chaos that my continue from that. Today I finally got the courage and updated the infobox related to musical artists, which was transcluded in +700 articles. The number of parameters and their type was more or less the same but in English so what I did was import the EnWiki version in a temporary name in SqWiki, get all the articles that it was transcluded on, feed that list on AWB together with 10 find and replace regex-es which would change the parameters on them (just translate them on English basically) and let my robot take over. Removed the old template, move the new one to the old name. Voila!

I was wondering if there are any other better ways I'm missing out on. - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I think – and someone should please correct me if I'm wrong – that all of the good solutions inspire editors to improve the article on Vaporware, and that your current appropach is the most typical, and best, of the existing (poor) options. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Possible printability issue

I do have a possible issue that may be rooted in Wikipedia software. Or in the construction of lists with Wikipedia style elements. Some larger lists do not "nicely" print. With nicely I mean you can get the entire data to printer output without manually resizing (scaling). Fit to page size should do that, but it doesn't. While this can be OS related, I am a bit puzzled that it does not even work for PDF output (instead of printer output). As PDF carries an outer frame, in which all elements are placed, in theory it should not occur that certain information gets outside that frame.

This is Linux Mint (Ubuntu) version 19, and I see the issue with both the printer driver for Canon MX925 (which is a very reliable, well written driver). I have to scale below 87% (!) to get the entire content of a given page into that page without overspill at the right hand side. At the moment, I do not have a Windows machine at hand to verify this behaviour on Windows.

Browser is an up-to-date Firefox 93. Printing is done via Firefox' print function, which utilizes all installed drivers and a built-in PDF export. Mint/Ubuntu also offers PDF printer export as a driver, so I got three options: Canon, PDF export driver, built-in Firefox PDF export. All three show the issue...

The best example to showcase this is the list of Doctor Who serials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_episodes_(1963%E2%80%931989)

Thanks a lot. 2001:A61:BAC:F001:9C64:F645:CAA3:9003 (talk) 10:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

mw.hook listener or list of all hooks

Is there is a list of all available hooks (mw.hook) or is there a listener that I can hook into to listen to all hook fires? I've looked at mw:Manual:Hooks, but that doesn't seem what I'm looking for. An example is User:BrandonXLF/EasySummary.js, where the script is hooked into ve.saveDialog.stateChanged Thanks! — DaxServer (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The core ones are listed here in the mw.hook documentation. Other ones are considered to be 'private' but most can easily be found with codesearch. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:19, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

If you just want the names of all the hooks that have previously fired on the page you're on, you could also go to the function definition for mw.hook in your browser's dev tools and set a breakpoint on return hooks[name] right at the top of the function, hit the breakpoint by running mw.hook(), then look at the keys in the hooks object. – Rummskartoffel 14:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @TheDJ and @Rummskartoffel. Both your solutions're quite useful! — DaxServer (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Creating a new user talk section using discussion tools unwatches the page

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T294122

Hi all, I've found that sometimes the quickest way of seeing if an issue is just me or not just me is by mentioning it here and waiting for the screaming.

Please see T294122, but in summary..

List of steps to reproduce: Watch a user talk page (e.g. https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TheresNoTime), either indefinitely or temporarily Click New Section, with the discussion tools enabled Fill in the section title, and message, and save What happens?: The message is posted, and the previously watched talk page is unwatched What should have happened instead?: The message is posted without affecting the watched status

Can anyone else confirm? ~TheresNoTime ^{(to explain!)} 14:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@TheresNoTime yep, confirmed - interestingly, when I tested on a page I had watchlisted before enabling discussion tools, the bug didn't trigger. When I tested watching a page after enabling discussion tools, things happened exactly as you describe. firefly ( t · c ) 14:12, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

GNU General Public License Flashcard Program to use on Wikipedia's glossaries.

Hi. Does anyone know of a GNU General Public License flashcard software program that can be used to run, share, and modify on Wikipedia? If so, please paste the code in your response. I would want to test it in the sandbox and then eventually place it on some of the glossaries and make flashcards within Wikipedia using the terms and definitions. The reader would be able to study the flashcards without leaving the page. It is an idea I have wanted to try for a long time. I think it would be a big hit. LearnMore (talk) 20:24, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@LearnMore: Wikipedia usually doesn't support that kind of interactive content, historically because it doesn't print in a reasonable way and is difficult to proofread. You can make quizzes on the Wikiversity sister project and link them as shown here. There is another technical reason that you don't want to host actual flashcards inside Mediawiki or its extensions: spaced repetition, a useful way to sequence flashcards, requires storage that doesn't fit into the Mediawiki database schema, nor in JavaScript storage in a way that would let a user migrate between browsers e.g. on different devices, and for large decks of flashcards such as for language vocabulary, it's not clear whether you could prevent bumping up against local storage limits even if you limited users to one browser. One very popular and widely supported free cross-platform flashcard app is Anki, decks of which you can link to with their AnkiWeb service which has limited collaboration features. 71.204.166.188 (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the response. I appreciate it. LearnMore (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit summaries with characters not staying on its line

This anon is vandalizing and leaving non-linear edit summaries 93.106.154.191 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) which are visible in his contribution history. I am using Windows 10 Pro/64 w/ Firefox current version. It is also visible with Chrome. Should a fix be made to Wiki's html generator?

Some of the "offending" test

̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ ̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ ̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ ̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ

Adakiko (talk) 07:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

See Zalgo text. Nardog (talk) 07:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

This could make for some interesting vandalism. Might need to request revdels so that other's edit summaries are readable? Adakiko (talk) 07:24, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

So far, all of the "offending" edits have been at WP:Sandbox, a page to which we extend a great degree of freedom; it is generally acknowledged that no edits to this page can constitute vandalism as it is normally understood. So long as they're not committing a great Wikicrime - such as making an attack page or posting a massive copyvio - we generally let it be. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

While in this case it appears not to be vandalism and may even be a legitimate test edit , the edits do present a problem which we may need to find solutions, to ensure that if someone does something similar on non-sandbox pages, it doesn't effect the usability of the page or of the page history to other legitimate users. Ideally we shouldn't have to rely on friendly admins rev-deleting things to fix issues like this.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I doubt this kind of vandalism occurs frequently enough to warrant any preventative measures. You have to know how to do it, and there are much easier and quicker ways to vandalise. – Rummskartoffel 13:10, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Archive header not displayed at Talk:Air Koryo

Hi, could someone take a look at why the list of archives isn't displaying at the top of Talk:Air Koryo? I'm guessing it's due to the strange naming convention, e.g. Talk:Air Koryo/2012/Archive 1, but not sure how to fix it. -M.nelson (talk) 10:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Because you didn't put (and configured) one of the templates that do just that?

User:MiszaBot/config#After_you_have_set_up_archiving. MarMi wiki (talk) 15:21, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. Those archives are very small and should probably be merged into one archive with a standard name. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Good point, the standard format would be better; I'll try resetting it and then {{talk header}} might list them without an additional template. -M.nelson (talk) 15:57, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Mapframe border disappeared

Following up from here, I'm continuing to have two issues with the Mapframe at Pomona College#Campus. The first (this thread) is that the boundary line has disappeared. The odd thing here is that it worked fine for a day or so when I first added it, but then it disappeared without any edits to the article/Wikidata item/OSM item I'm aware of, and it hasn't come back. The bug is replicated above at center.

The partial workaround I've found is to change |type=line to |type=shape, as shown above at right. However, even with the fill opacity set to zero, it still means anywhere in the interior of the campus becomes clickable with the title popping up. I'd much prefer it to return to the behavior from the line type before starting the FAC; does anyone know how to get that working again? Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

It's hard to say, but generally, I don't think shapes are supposed to be available in the line service. I'd be surprised if they were. Then again, our change in the osmdb sync has brought to light multiple changes already, so maybe there is an error. I really can't say. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@TheDJ, the OSM feature from which the boundary is (I think) being derived is way 458898308, which is a line rather than a shape. I know some other institutions have a relation in addition to a way; I don't really understand what the difference is between those or if that might be related to the issue. Also, I'm not sure what you're referring to with "osmdb sync". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Mapframe references don't display within descriptions

Following up from here, the second issue I've been having with the Mapframe at Pomona College#Campus (first in thread directly above) is that references don't display properly within the description field. Click on the pin at right to see how <ref>{{cite news|last1=Fitz|first1=Allison|date=14 February 2020|title=New Rains Center to be completed by 2022; 5Cs prepare for construction's effects|work=[[The Student Life]]|url=https://tsl.news/new-rains-center-to-be-remodeled/|access-date=2 December 2020}}</ref> gets mangled. The same thing happens with SFNs, which I'd also like to use. I haven't been able to make progress on this since last time, so it may require a phab ticket; if that's the case, I'm mostly looking to understand how to better present the issue to increase the likelihood it gets taken up. Thanks in advance for the help, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging those who commented previously: @Izno, Ɱ, TheDJ, Tgr (WMF), and Krinkle: see also the thread immediately above. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@Sdkb T28213 is the general class this bug belongs to. Tgr (WMF) (talk) 01:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

This problem is because the templates used here just dump wikitext into geojson. But geojson doesn't support wikitext or html, geojson only supports text only descriptions. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The lua/template probably can use killMarkers to remove the references from the input. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I tried that, but mw.text.killMarkers and mw.text.unstrip don't seem to work any more (only mw.text.unstripNoWiki seems still functional). Is there any downside to removing the stripmarker with gsub? —  Jts1882 | talk  15:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@TheDJ and Jts1882: Mapframe does seem able to handle images, so I think that means it's able to convert at least some types of wikitext into proper output. Would getting it to do the same with references be feasible, or is that out of the question? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Sdkb, Jts1882, and Tgr (WMF): I think I fixed it in the sandbox ? Markers include control characters and because control characters cannot be in json, these were getting stripped from the input. By moving that logic to later in the flow and using killMarkers on content explictely meant for the json body, I think we can work around both problems. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

oh great, now the static map is broken again... Guess there is still a control char somewhere.... —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

ah interesting.. moved the coord a fraction and it fixed itself. I think i know why.. the livepreview saved a copy of the image with a different hash, causing an incorrect group reference being generated that the static tile renderer then cannot use... This likely happens a lot and I think i might already have a patch for that particular problem somewhere.

@TheDJ: I tried adding a ref within a direct call of mapframe HTML, as you suggested. It doesn't seem to have worked, though. Am I doing something wrong? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Sdkb: there were just a few errors in the json. Importantly, the json values need to be escaped (esp. "), but also geojson flips the order of the latitude and longitude (apparently that's a thing in Cartesian geometry). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

References

There is a draft for this article

When edited, dab Morgan White claims that "There is a draft for this article at Draft:Morgan White". That page does exist, but it's a redirect to Morgan White (gymnast). I see why {{Editnotices/Namespace/Main}} is invoking {{Draft at}}, but could we handle such cases better? Pinging BD2412 and SD0001 who contributed to a previous discussion. Certes (talk) 22:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and moved the draft title to Draft:Morgan White (gymnast) for consistency. BD2412 T 22:52, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest an edit at template talk:Editnotices/Namespace/Main. The logic has become rather complicated, though maybe not to the extent that a Lua module is needed. – SD0001 (talk) 11:51, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. This odd-looking behaviour seems correct then: the template is right to draw our attention to the minor issue of a malplaced redirect. If someone were preparing a BCA or other replacement for the dab, I'd want to know about it. Certes (talk) 14:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Missing history?

I received a message on User talk:BattyBot claiming that my bot created Draft:Manathi P Ganesan. However, my bot doesn't create drafts. I looked at the draft history, and the only edit listed is my bot's edit to add {{Draft categories}}. What happened to the rest of the edit history, and how can it be restored? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Based on the logs, the draft was history-merged into a user sandbox page, which basically moved all revisions to that page. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 02:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Anthony Appleyard used Special:MergeHistory to move the rest of the history to User:Mc.balamurugan/sandbox. It's still there, so there's nothing to restore. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Click "View logs for this page" at top of the page history to see what happened. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:38, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Attribution of tags

I made this edit just to fix a template date in a article split request so the article would be correctly categorized by the month/year. This got listed under Articles to be split at Wikipedia:WikiProject Singapore as proposed by me when it was in fact an IP that first added {{split-section}}. Another editor did a split, without there having been any discussion. After that, they discovered it was suggested by an IP, and mentioned on my TP that they were mislead and may not have done the split had they realized the request came from an IP (not to disparage all IPs). Regardless, the "proposer" of the split was listed incorrectly. I don't know what templates/bots are involved in this so asking here if this can be "fixed". MB 19:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@MB: I think you are referring to this edit - and think that it should be better? If so, please bring it up at User talk:AAlertBot and / or Wikipedia talk:Article alerts to see how that could be improved. — xaosflux ^Talk 20:19, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Asked at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts. Thanks. MB 20:26, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Where to post SQL requests

I'm pretty sure there used to be a page somewhere to ask for SQL queries to be run. I did a cold search, and found Wikipedia:SQL requests, which led me on this amazing journey, via a 6-way soft redirect-cum-splashpage-cum-suggested page runaround:

• Wikipedia:SQL requests → meta:Requests for queries → wikitech:Nova Resource:Tools/Tools/Query service → wikitech:Obsolete:Tool:Query service → Jira DBQ → wikitech:Portal:Toolforge →?→ wikitech:Category:Toolforge_tools

but never found my answer. So my first question is, where should Wikipedia:SQL requests *really* [soft-]redirect to?

Secondly, if you happen to know SQL and your appointment tomorrow with the Prime Minister was canceled at the last minute, I'm looking for two queries, yielding a count, and a handful of sample pages:

• count – how many non-existent pages in Draft space have one or more in-links from mainspace? (I.e., if Draft:Foo_123 has one in-link from mainspace, Draft:Bar_456 has five, and Draft:Baz_678 has one hundred, the total count is 3.)
• sample – can I get a list of around a dozen non-existent PAGENAMEs in Draftspace from that set, somewhat randomly selected (i.e., not all starting with 'A').

Thanks! Mathglot (talk) 03:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:Request a query. – SD0001 (talk) 03:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@SD0001:, thank you! Mathglot (talk) 05:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Moved to WP:Request a query § Non-existent Draft PAGENAMEs with in-links from mainspace

Anarchism quality/ importance issues

Hi all - was pointed to come here with this question from the help desk. Currently, some articles that have an importance assessment are showing up as "NA", even though they have an importance scale assigned to them. I was wondering if there was a way to fix this? Wikipedia:WikiProject Anarchism Jamzze (talk) 20:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Please link to one or two articles with this problem. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jamzze: And make sure they really are articles. I suspect the "articles" you have in mind are actually redirects but it's hard to tell without an example. Always include an example. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Yup, looks like they're redirects that have their class set. I just fixed one of them. --rchard2scout (talk) 12:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi all - thanks so much - I had no idea! Will have a look at the redirects and change that then. Jamzze (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Rchard2scout and Jamzze: Explicitly setting |class=redirect is rarely necessary, because most WikiProject banners will autodetect it; Milhist is a rare exception. Unless the page is an actual article or a disambiguation page, it's normally best to omit the |class= parameter, or leave it blank. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-43

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

• The Coolest Tool Award 2021 is looking for nominations. You can recommend tools until 27 October.

Changes later this week

• The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 26 October. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 27 October. It will be on all wikis from 28 October (calendar).

Future changes

• Diff pages will have an improved copy and pasting experience. The changes will allow the text in the diff for before and after to be treated as separate columns and will remove any unwanted syntax. [1]
• The version of the Liberation fonts used in SVG files will be upgraded. Only new thumbnails will be affected. Liberation Sans Narrow will not change. [2]

Meetings

• You can join a meeting about the Community Wishlist Survey. News about the disambiguation and the real-time preview wishes will be shown. The event will take place on Wednesday, 27 October at 14:30 UTC. See how to join.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

20:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Rollback on mobile devices

On two occasions lately I have fat-fingered rollback. On both occasions a dialog box opened that asked me if I really wanted to do that. On both occasions I answered “Cancel”, but it performed the rollback anyway. I need to disable this for myself, as I don’t tend to use rollback and obviously the option is causing more harm than good, but I thought maybe a technical-minded person could look into it. Thank you! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26: before diving in any further, would you please check Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and confirm if your option for Require confirmation before performing rollback on mobile devices is checked? — xaosflux ^Talk 17:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Yes, it is, thank you for asking. And in fact, the confirmation is popping up just like it should. The problem is that when "Cancel" is selected, the rollback is performed anyway. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26: thank you, can you provide an example of the last time this occurred? I suspected it might have been Special:AbuseFilter/examine/1436794383? Can you be a bit more specific about your interface? Are you using the mobile application (ios or android), or the mobile web? If using a mobile device and web, are you using "desktop view"? — xaosflux ^Talk 17:23, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26 Which browser, device, and skin are you using? — MusikAnimal ^talk 17:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux:, @MusikAnimal:, the last two examples are: [3] and [4]. This is on an Apple iPhone 6s, Software Version 14.6., Safari browser, "desktop view" (sorry, I really don't like mobile view). Does that help? 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26: using that same browser, would you mind sharing your useragent? You can fetch that from sites such as Google using this link. Feel free to redact any version numbers in there. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Just a note, this is MediaWiki:Gadget-confirmationRollback-mobile.js. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 14_6 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko). 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 18:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26 Thanks. I unfortunately have no way of testing the behaviour on an iPhone, but I do recall someone reporting this same issue before and they were also using an iPhone. Could you try using a different browser, such as Chrome or Firefox? That will at least narrow it down to a Safari issue. The gadget itself is extremely simple and should in theory work in virtually all browsers. — MusikAnimal ^talk 20:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Allright, I'll make some test edits with my alternate account and then try to "not-rollback" on both the Safari browser and Chrome. (I've never used Chrome on my mobile device, guess I'll see how I like it...) I'll ping you with the result. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 20:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal: I presume this is bad news, but on both browsers (Safari, Chrome, both using Desktop view) I hit "rollback" and selected "Cancel" each time. I never selected "OK" on either browser. If you check my edit history you'll see the discouraging results. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 21:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@78.26: Yes, bad news :( That must mean it's an iPhone issue, I suppose. I will try to find a device (or virtual device) to debug this further. For now, since you say you rarely use rollback, you could hide the links entirely with User:MusikAnimal/rollbackTouch.js. — MusikAnimal ^talk 21:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal:Thanks! My next question was going to be if I could disable this (you can't in Preferences, already looked) because I can think of twice I've used rollback on purpose. Thank you also, Xaosflux. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 21:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If you never use rollback on desktop either, you can simply hide them by adding

.mw-rollback-link {
	display: none;
}

to your common.css. That would be simpler and faster than installing that script or enabling the gadget. Nardog (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to suggest that, but it leaves a lingering pipe character next to "undo". In order to remove that you need to remove the outer span which doesn't have a CSS class or ID. We could hide the first span under .mw-changeslist-links, but I'm not sure that accounts for rollback links in all places, or if there are cases where rollback isn't in the first span. Finally, the script only targets mobile devices (though 78.26 made it clear they don't use rollback on any device). But anyway, yes, a CSS-only solution is always more efficient. — MusikAnimal ^talk 22:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

That's only true on history. On Contributions, Watchlist and RecentChanges the whole list item gets removed. It also has the problem of not taking effect after a live update. Nardog (talk) 22:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Bah! Okay I've removed the .parent() (which I only added just before I commented here). A pity that the HTML isn't consistent across change lists. Thanks for pointing that out! I can do the special handling for history pages, I suppose.

Good point also about live update. This script I believe predates the live feature of Watchlist and RecentChanges, though of course other scripts/gadgets could dynamically add rollback links as well. I'll fix that, but for anyone reading this who wants to hide rollback links forever and always, like 78.26, use the CSS Nardog mentioned above :) I assume for most people the stray pipe characters on history pages is not much of a nuisance. — MusikAnimal ^talk 22:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It would be simpler if you just added a class to <body> if the user agent indicates a mobile device and hid rollback links under that class in CSS. Nardog (talk) 22:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Nardog Clever! That's a pure JS solution (assuming you'll use mw.util.addCSS(), so there's still a bit of delay as opposed to pure CSS, but that seems more than acceptable here. I'll give this a go when I find the time. If you wanted to write something yourself I'll happily review it and merge it into the gadget. Just ping me :) — MusikAnimal ^talk 05:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

It's really weird that the rollback gets performed despite choosing Cancel, as opposed to the gadget not taking effect at all. I can totally see the gadget failing when used on Ajax-updated pages though, since it's attaching the handler to .mw-rollback-link just once, directly. I think it should either make use of event delegation as in $(document.body).on('click', '.mw-rollback-link', function (e) {... or hook it to wikipage.content and attach the handler every time the page is updated.

$(".mw-rollback-link").parent().remove() removes not just the links but the whole list items with them (i.e. .parent() is unnecessary). But I don't understand why you wouldn't just hide them in CSS. Nardog (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Only after this lengthy discussion did I recall meta:WMDE Technical Wishes/Rollback which has been around for a while now. In Preferences > Appearance, look for "Show a confirmation prompt when clicking on a rollback link". This makes it work much like the "Thank" button which requires a second click to confirm. However there appears to be some UI issues in the Advanced Mode on mobile. But for those who only work off of the desktop UI (be it on a mobile device or otherwise), this is a nice solution to the problem. — MusikAnimal ^talk 05:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal: sorta - that will also force the link when not "on mobile" too. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Difficulty in editing templates using the VisualEditor

Sorry, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this message but here goes. The VisualEditor is a more accesible way of editing and I really think we should make as many of our pages work with it as is possible. I have come across various templates such as List of listed buildings in Stonehaven, Aberdeenshire, aviation destination lists on airport pages, and multi-column templates, that make it harder or impossible to edit and add references using the VisualEditor. In frustration, I created a deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_July_11#Template:Airport_destination_list but it was kept, and to be honest I felt the keep arguments were unconvincing.

I suppose I want to see if anyone has the same feelings as me here, and if an argument could be made for removing these templates on the grounds of their negative impact on accessibility. Especially in the case of templates creating tables, I just don't think it's beneficial as experienced editors still know how to edit table syntax in the source code editor, but new editors or those who find the VisualEditor easier to use are locked out from editing. Could multiple columns be created using a div and CSS, avoiding the need for a template? If we want new editors to cite their sources, we need to make it easy for them to do so. NemesisAT (talk) 11:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't use VE, but doesn't {{Airport destination list}}'s documentation need a TemplateData section in order to make it usable with VE? I thought that was required, or at least required for ease of use. {{HS listed building row}}, which is used in the list article, is also lacking TemplateData code. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm unable to experiment with TemplateData on {{Airport destination list}} as it has been locked, however my gripe with it was that you can't add citations, or indeed any formatting, unless you know the wikicode off-by-heart at which point you may as well use the source editor anyway. In fact, I believe it is not possible to add a citation or use WYSIWYG editing for any template paramter within the VisualEditor. Regarding the listed buildings template, that article is actually one template containing many more within it. It appears to be too much for the VisualEditor to load but again even if it did load, as the entire article is located within template parameters it is impossible to use VisualEditor tools to edit it, you're stuck with using source code within the VisualEditor. Hopefully this makes sense! TemplateData is good but I don't think it would resolve the issues I'm facing here. NemesisAT (talk) 16:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Somewhat perversely, TemplateData code is stored in the templates' documentation pages, which are not protected, so you should be able to add it yourself, to each of the templates in question. I don't think it makes sense to assume that the templates would not work with VE if they were properly equipped with TemplateData code; try it first before giving up. For help in adding that code, your best bet is probably Wikipedia:Help desk. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah of course, I forgot that it's on the documentation page. I'll have a look. NemesisAT (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I have started a TemplateData for {{Airport destination list}}, but it will never be able to help you with adding a reference as the reference tools are all in the main VisualEditor toolbar, whereas the parameters of a template can only be edited in plain text. I should note that I am able to use the source code editor, in fact, I used to be opposed to the VisualEditor (both on here and on Wikia), but as it has developed, I've realised it is much easier for editing large tables and long pages with lots of references in them. NemesisAT (talk) 17:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Three thoughts:

• @Johanna Strodt (WMDE) will want to see this, since WMDE is currently working on how to edit templates in the visual editor.
• Most table-oriented templates were created a long time ago. MediaWiki originally used plain old HTML to create tables (a pair of <tr> tags for each row, a pair of <td> tags for each cell, etc.) The creation of a wikitext syntax (|-for a new row, || to separate cells on the same line) for made it easier, but it's still hard, especially when the table is large, or if you want any colors or other fancy formatting. Editors created table templates because it was easier than the wikitext for large or heavily formatted tables. However, now that the visual editor handles all of "code" parts for you, it is generally easier to edit tables in the visual editor than to wrangle templates (unless you want colored text). I particularly recommend the visual editor to anyone who needs to add, remove, or rearrange the columns in an existing table.
• You can add and edit templates even if a TemplateData section doesn't exist. It's just (usually) more difficult.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

That's interesting, I didn't know about the history of the table syntax. NemesisAT (talk) 17:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Late to the party but... sending a template to TfD on the grounds that it's difficult to edit in VE could be seen as WP:POINTy. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Here are some scatter brain thoughts (without reviewing that TFD):

1. Templates can ensure intra-article consistency. While that is not something we necessarily need to preserve, it can be a nice benefit of table templates.
2. Templates can indicate the good 'default' information to include. (A drawback is sometimes that's an infobox with 50 parameters. ;)
3. Templates can restrict what is included, e.g. as in fan-driven wiki articles.
4. They are easier even than wiki syntax to deal with by experienced editors. Just because we know how doesn't mean we prefer to know.

They have detracting points too of course.

1. VE dislikes them. (BTW the Phab task you are looking for is phab:T52182 and related. It's old.)
2. Do we really need standardization across all such articles for all such tables?

I know in the past that some of table templates have been deleted as being generally unnecessary, but certainly not all. And those have mostly been table-start, table-row, table-end type templates, not templates that compose the entire construct.

Another Phab task of interest might be phab:T54582 for the specific template.

A specific point: Could multiple columns be created using a div and CSS Yes, but we don't want users to do that. It's fundamentally gross and requires inline CSS. In the case of reference blocks, one might consider advocating to remove {{reflist}} in the general case in lieu of <references/> since most people probably don't need what it provides anymore (columns of references), and where they do they could instead use {{div col}}, which wouldn't make VE sad. Making general columns like {{col-begin}} does is somewhere on my to do list, but I don't know when I'll get to a nice version. Izno (talk) 17:00, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Media Search is available for all users on Wikimedia Commons

Hello! We wanted to make a gentle reminder that, since last May, there is a new default way to search files and other media on Commons. Special:MediaSearch has been developed in the past year to make use of the structured data on Commons and information from Wikidata in order to provide users with more relevant and extensive results, regardless of the language used for the query.

The new interface allows users to access some of the file information (licensing, description…) directly on the page, gives users various options to better filter results, and relies on Wikidata's concept-linking abilities and multilingual labels. Special:Search remains available for users for cases when its purposeful wikitext-based search may be more appropriate to use.

MediaSearch is just one part of the larger Structured Data Across Wikimedia project, which aims to structure content on wikitext pages, to make reading, editing, and searching easier and more accessible across projects and on the Internet. If you want to learn more about the project, please visit the project pages on MediaWiki, subscribe to the SDAW Newsletter, or get in touch with us on the project's talk page. The Structured Data team looks forward to continuing work on opening up Wikimedia content. Thanks! -- Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)